Of Micro rotors

Nov 16, 2001,09:21 AM
 

Hi Peter,

Sorry I don't have a photo of it, but Buren, which is to say Hans Kocher, their brilliant design chief, came out with the world's first micro rotor, which they called a "planetary rotor" in 1957.

Suffice it to say that Kocher himself, perhaps one of the most talented movement designers that the Swiss watch industry produced, abandoned the micro rotor by the time Buren made their last movement, the Calibre 82, which was a 42,800 Bph , double barrel, constant force escapement with bi direction self winding. This movement was design to compete in accuracy with tuning fork watches and be accurate to +/- 60 seconds a month. Whew!!! However, the rotor was mounted in the center, just like all current ETA movements.

What Buren and others who have made micro rotors have soon discovered was that they had the following problems that meant they would never become the standard solution to the engineering of the automatic watches-1) Cost of manufacture 2) difficulty of design and manufacture 3) Need of extensive hand work 3) Tendency to stop because of oil problems, or because the wearer did not move his arm sufficiently.

Intrinsically, planetary rotors have a problem because, not being located in the center of the watch, they only receive a portion of the force transmitted by the wearer's motion. Only watchmaking of the highest order can sufficiently overcome these problems, which is why micro rotors tend to be restricted to a few, very high quality watches, such as Piaget and Lange.

Somewhat like the tourbillon, the micro rotor is not a solution for everyone. It is much more difficult and expensive to make than the conventional lay out of automatic watches, and consequently, much more exclusive. In of itself, any watch with a micro rotor system must be judged to be one of the very highest quality.

Buren made their micro rotors almost exclusively for Hamilton, and the very limited number of makers manufacturing automatics with micro rotors, as well as the very limited number made per year--I doubt there are even 5,000 pieces made world wide yearly--gives a good idea of the rareity and cost of this system.

Makers such as Lange and Piaget overcome the problems of this type of movement by extremely careful workmanship, using rotors as heavy as possible, often of 18K gold, and carefully hand polishing every mechanical surface to a mirror finish to minimize friction. Also, modern oils not available in 1957, have eliminated entirely oil blockage problems.

Paul Gerber's double rotors are a type of micro rotor, but as I pointed out, being located at the center of the movement, they can take full advantage of the angular momentum of the watch, which micro rotors can not.

None the less, I personally consider the micro rotor far and away the most desireable type of automatic watch (I wish I had one!) and watch making at its very finest expression.


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Paul Gerber and his famous watch with retrograde seconds and retro twin automatic

 
 By: Lord_Arran : November 15th, 2001-09:21
Hello In reply to Mr. Peter Chong's question some time ago I like to publish the Gerber watch with retrograde seconds and retro twin automatic self-winding. At the same time I show the window which has been decorated with Paul's watches at the famous watc...  

Absolutely brilliant, Lord Arran!>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 15th, 2001-10:22
Hello, Those are fabulous photographs. Unfortunately, when I was in Zurich recently, I missed the Paul Gerber display... hmmm? We, Thomas and myself, even went to Beyer, but I was not well at the time and did not investigate the store, which I regret a gr... 

Thanks...some questions

 
 By: Peter Chong : November 15th, 2001-11:23
Dear Lord Arran, Thank you for continuing to share with us. The twin rotor watch is quite interestingly designed, and seems unique. I have four questions, which perhaps you may help answer: 1. what is the base ebauche used for the twin rotor watch? 2. Fro... 

some answers and an information about the photos

 
 By: Lord_Arran : November 15th, 2001-11:23
Dear Peter Chong, I must admit that I have made a mistake and have taken old photos of Paul Gerber's watch. The new and actual ones will be published in due course and time. To answer your quetions: 1. the ebauche is from "Ebauches Peseux" model 7001. 2. ... 

Hmm...Peseaux 7001...

 
 By: Peter Chong : November 16th, 2001-12:12
Dear Lord Arran, A highly unusual choice for an automatic watch. This indicates that he must have created the automatic winding mechanism himself. Would you be able to elaborate if there was anything unusual about the winding mechanism? In comparing the m... 

Peseux 7001 used by Blanc Pain and others

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 16th, 2001-01:01
The Peseux 7001--which George Lewis, my teacher in watch school, used to called the "Peso" --is used in very highly modified form by Blanc Pain and several other high quality brands. The Blanc Pain 7001--their reference number is totally different--has ha... 

very informative...

 
 By: Peter Chong : November 16th, 2001-01:01
thank you Bill. Perhaps, I may observe that a contributor to low profile of the movement is the fact that both rotors are mounted on ball bearings. Would you be able to elaborate on the said Buren rotor? Also, if you could give some examples and tell us m... 

Of Micro rotors

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 16th, 2001-09:21

try this

 
 By: ei8htohms1 : November 17th, 2001-03:03
probably more info than you wanted but. . . Hamilton/Buren Intramatic article

Are you studying at NSCC, my alma mater?

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 17th, 2001-08:20
Hi John, Thanks for the information on the Buren article. It's very good. I hear you are studying watchmaking in Seattle.I learned watchmaking at North Seattle Community College back in the 70's. Is this where you are studying? Bill

Indeed

 
 By: ei8htohms1 : November 17th, 2001-09:21
Hi Bill, That is where I'm going to school and I'm loving it. So much so that I spent a good portion of today (Saturday) sharpening my gravers! Tomorrow morning I get to mirror polish them on a steel lap with some diamond paste. I'm just cutting screws ri... 

Good Old NSCC

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 18th, 2001-06:18
I have lots of fond memories of the place. My teacher was George Lewis, one of the best watchmakers in Seattle and universally respected among watchmakers in the USA. George was also a former Olympic athelete and a coach for the US team as well as an enth... 

Interesting, a question for you

 
 By: ei8htohms1 : November 18th, 2001-06:18
Hi Bill, Thanks for the background, sounds like a good time. Do you know how long WOSTEP has been around even? The instructors there now are Marty Ferguson and Elaine Rolf (I think I got their names right). I'll be posting some pics and a little write-up ... 

I think>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 18th, 2001-06:18

Back in the Ole' days

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 19th, 2001-06:18
Back when I went to NSCC in the 70s, there wasn't any affiliation, but WOSTEP was already active, giving week end seminars all over the USA, with them sometimes in Washington State. They dealt with various movements and procedures. However, at the time, m... 

Founded 1967, reorganized 1987, and '92 or '94 for world wide partnerships>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 19th, 2001-06:18
Hi Bill, Bloody hell! I hope you have increased your rates! So, how has watchmaking changed or affected you in your years at the bench? While your knowledge and skills have increased with exeperience, how has the work changed? Are you working on the same ... 

A long strange trip

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 20th, 2001-01:01
Probably the biggest and most unexpected thing to happen in my career is the explosion of interest in wrist watches. I remember my disbeleif when I first heard that there were people who actually collected watches. This will give you an idea of my perspec... 

Thanks for sharing that with me, Bill. (nt)

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 20th, 2001-09:09

Grateful for the information...

 
 By: Peter Chong : November 17th, 2001-05:17

1st the pics of the Mysterieuse and its movement

 
 By: Lord_Arran : November 16th, 2001-01:01
Dear Mr. Curtis Esq. Please look at the photos below. You see the Mysterieuse in it's entity, then the movement and then the latter dismantled. As I mentionned, this is a constant force escapement by every second. Cheers Lord Arran Apparantly the file is ...  

Amazing!

 
 By: BarryN : November 16th, 2001-07:07

Wonderful pictures, as usual!

 
 By: Tom Gillham : November 16th, 2001-01:13
and a question for you technical types! Is there any mechanical justification for using a tourbillon in a table clock? Not, of course, that any is needed. The aesthetic result is justification enough. Incidentally, do you think that Paul Gerber's watches ... 

It depends on the orientation of the escapement>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 16th, 2001-02:14
Hi Tom, Poising errors, which the tourbillon eliminates, are only noticeable in the vertical plane. If the escapement is horizontal, then there are no registered poising errors. For example, in a carriage clock, if we have a tourbillon fitted to an escape... 

Ok Curtis, I can follow that...

 
 By: Tom Gillham : November 16th, 2001-03:15
but I thought that the point was that poising errors naturally vary according to the position of the escapement. Thus a watch's rate of gain or loss varies depending on whether it is pendant up, or down, left or right etc. Where the position is fixed, as ... 

Ah, yes...

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 16th, 2001-05:17
Hi Tom, Excellent observation and one which can't be easily answered, as there are many variables and learned opinions from both positions. The counter point to your question is that a balance and balance spring can never be perfectly poised and thus, the... 

how about isochronism?

 
 By: ei8htohms1 : November 17th, 2001-03:03
Hi Guys, I was wondering how isochronism might factor into this equation (of vertical tourbillons in stationary clocks). I agree with Tom that basically regulating the daily rate through bench testing will compensate for any and all errors of poise but po... 

Constant force?

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 17th, 2001-08:20
I wonder if some sort of constant force set up/ escape wouldn't also accomplish this? I was thinking of Paul Gerber's mystery clock. Also, didn't Lange (or someone?) put a fusee into one of their tourbillons with this thought in mind? Or has my imaginatio... 

I think you're right

 
 By: ei8htohms1 : November 17th, 2001-09:21

Let's see>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 18th, 2001-09:09
Hi guys, First let me offer my opinion on why Paul Gerber added the tourbillon to this piece. I believe he included this as a show of craftsmanship and to make this piece unique for the purchaser. I would not delegate this into the realm of "gimmick" eith...  

Beautiful work!Thank you (nt)

 
 By: Bill Stonehill : November 18th, 2001-06:18

Gerbers watches and prices

 
 By: Lord_Arran : November 16th, 2001-04:16

USA Distribution

 
 By: sss : November 16th, 2001-07:19

Wonderful!>>>

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : November 16th, 2001-08:08