Can we have a serious discussion about resonance?

Mar 03, 2005,03:03 AM
 

I think that nearly everyone with any background or even sense about physics and technology has a gut or intuitive sense of resonance.

Certainly, even the layman has an intuitive feel for the subject, in the sense of something "resonating" - echos; a string "spontaneously" vibrating to end up producing a note; the cup of water in the opening scene of one of the Jurassic Park movies; sub- and ultra- sonic vibrations that, for whatever reason, end up creating a harmonic that then manifests itself in some other perceivable phenomena like crystal flying apart in a thousand pieces.

At the heart of this subject seems to be the more readily "graspable" phenomenon of vibrations, and by extension, more abstractly, wave and particle physics. Specifically, oscillation frequency, which has practical implications in things as divergent as repeater functioning and "sound quality" to the wind buffeting in the cabin when the second row window is open in your Navigator SUV to the sturdiness of the boat frame as it "skips" across the wave tops.

Based upon my elementary school level understanding of physics, all things in nature have a natural vibrating frequency, even down to the sub-atomic levels.

Specifically in regards to "resonance" as a phenomenon, I recall (forgive me, it has been decades) that

a. all things have a natural frequency, since all things are made of molecules, themselves made of atoms, themselves made of sub-atomic particles, and at the most fundamental, sub-atomic levels, there are natural frequencies of vibration, which can be cumulative, or cross cancelling, on up the complexity chain.

b. the introduction, naturally or artificially, of another frequency of oscillation which interacts with the natural frequency of the object being studied for resonance.

c. the interaction of these two vibrations, which either reinforce or mitigate each other, results in the various effects and benefits/harmful results of resonance (bridges falling down, pleasant or hurtful sounds, balances and hairsprings that achieve resonance and therefore have even more rate stability, etc Is it possible even gyroscopic effects have their basis in resonance?)

As Tesla and other "great" scientists have shown, these natural frequencies can be harnessed and manipulated to create broadcast media like radio and television; MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) machines; even orgasms in human and other living organic beings.

So what does this have to do with horology and chronometry?

What is it about the Janvier resonance clocks? Journe's Resonance wristwatch? Haldimann's new double resonance tourbillon? What is the theory, and what are the facts?

Anyone?

TM

(please forgive any technical errors or omissions; I am NOT a scientist or engineer)


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A little bit. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-09:09
. . .from me; I just read an interesting article archived to a physics newsgroup on the famous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapes, which is often presented in physics textbooks (having not seen the inside of a physics textbook in years, I must take this on fa... 

I am sure that acoustic resonance still exists

 
 By: tony p : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
within the Journe watch, despite what you say about drag effects between the two balances. It has been described elsewhere on ThePuristS (from memory, by Felipe) how a Journe watch's two movements will start to beat in synchrony a few minutes after windin... 

Two points in rebuttal. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13

Tacoma Bridge paper

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
Jack, I think this is the paper you're talking about. Well worth a read - it basically highlights that there is much more to this than meets the eye - and the simplistic explanations aren't correct. http://www-mtl.mit.edu/research/mems-salon/sriram_Billah... 

That's it, Greg. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15

Are you sure that the balances in the Journe Resonance

 
 By: IanS : March 3rd, 2005-10:22
rotate in the same direction Jack ? I have always understood that they rotated in opposite directions which would make air flow a possibility: though Suitbert mentions elsewhere that Journe has found the same effect in a vacumn chamber, which if correct, ... 

from Felipe (is it possible different examples couple differently even? :) )

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:03
Hi Ian, Felipe mentioned it recently to Jack and I and we were both a little shocked to hear that the balances oscillated in phase with each other. He was only referring to his specific example though so I'm not sure how this reflects what is supposed to ... 

Yes indeed. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .straight from Our Man Inside; in fact he mentions it in his review of the Journe Resonance specifically (and chided me gently for not being observant enough to have noticed it in the write-up) . I wondered the same thing John- given the need to place... 

The true resonance? It must be Bulova Accutron with tuning fork...

 
 By: Wichai : March 4th, 2005-05:05
Dear all, Just an addendum to this wonderful discussion, the probably most understandable case of resonance utilized in watch's movement could be of a Bulova Accutron. The oscillator makes the tuning forks vibrate with their natural frequency all the time... 

Resonance

 
 By: Greg D : March 4th, 2005-02:14

A brace of extracurricular . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . . examples before moving on to watches. First up is the legendary Lockheed P-38 Lightning which was the fighter plane flown by the two highest-scoring American aces of WWII - the twin-engine design employed contra-rotating propellers which were credit... 

Yes, but in the P-38 the propellers were contra-rotating. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . .which would have produced vibrations that tended to cancel each other; this is the opposite of resonance, isn't it? And in the Journe watch, as I understand it the balances are actually rotating in the same direction. . . Jack

Resonance in-phase vs out-of-phase . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
. . . hmm, this is getting complicated. In both of my extra-horological examples, the employment of out-of-phase resonance cancellation succeeded in improving the physical characteristics of the device in question. (Paranthetically, the P-38's purchased f... 

Hey, you think that's complicated. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
...  

I don't think the advantage of contra-rotating propellers has anything to do with...

 
 By: JGV : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
resonance Hi all, Two-engine propellor aircraft have a non-symmetric flow condition at the tail when both props rotate in the same direction, affecting directional control. The propeller slipstream produces a highly non-symmetric lift-distribution relativ... 

A frew thoughts on this...

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
The physics to two simple coupled oscillators isn't hard. If we're talking two coupled pendulums that will have two modes - one where they move together, and another where they move in opposite directions. These two modes will occur at different frequenci... 

Hi Greg, great stuff- a question. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
. . .from a physicist's perspective, are coupled oscillators necessarily resonating? The definitions I've read all define resonance in terms of an oscillator being driven at one of its natural frequencies by some external source, and also specify (often) ... 

Actually, I doubt that there is a difference between coupled and resonant oscillators.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:03
After this morning's post, I went off to work. All day I had the nagging feeling that what I had just written was wrong. (Less wrong than the rest of the poor deluded offerings above, but wrong nevertheless.) Resonance effects can occur where the frequenc... 

Actually AFAIK the 'vaccum chamber test' has . . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .not been done on the Journe watch. With respect to classic linear resonance where a 'passive' oscillator is driven by some external force at one of its natural frequencies, I don't think (pardon the nitpicking but this thread is all about picking nit... 

every object or system has a natural frequency

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:15
Hi Jack, A passive oscillator does have a natural frequency and it is precisely this fact that allows resonance to occur. In addition to a natural frequency there are also harmonics above and/or below the natural frequency that can be exploited by/for res... 

More info for consideration....

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : March 4th, 2005-01:13
Hi all, A few bits of info to add to the murky waters... The first bit is a LINK to an article I posted a couple of years ago written by Anthony Randall regarding Journe's Resonance. For a frame of reference regarding Anthony Randall - he majored in physi... 

Hi Curtis, extremely interesting. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .it's probably worth carefully noting that resonance effects can take place through almost unbelievably subtle mechanical linkages. I've been reading 'Tuxedo Park' which is a biography of Alfred Lee Loomis, who financed (among other things) the Americ... 

PS with all this great multimedia stuff on the other fora lately. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .what we need is a quicktime movie of somebody's Journe resonance in action Jack

Awesome, thank you Max. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 7th, 2005-08:08

Thanks, Curtis, for these clarifications.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:15
I have to say Jack, though your horological expertise is not in question, you still seem to be missing my point about resonance. Firstly: when I referred to the frequency of the unpowered oscillator, I was of course referring to its natural resonant frequ... 

I wonder - If a Duality was fitted with a locking differential,

 
 By: IanS : March 5th, 2005-12:12
would it perform better with or without the diff locked ?

Interesting question

 
 By: Dave Fabiszak : March 8th, 2005-09:21

Dynamo

 
 By: Alex : March 10th, 2005-08:08

About Resonance, and also the "Project 150"

 
 By: Justin Koullapis : March 10th, 2005-06:18
Gentlemen, I have read your posts on this subject with great interest?I have recently been giving resonance a lot of thought, and specifically how it relates to current and past horological creations. It would seem to me that any system of coupled oscilla...