A little bit. . .

Mar 03, 2005,09:09 AM
 

. . .from me; I just read an interesting article archived to a physics newsgroup on the famous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapes, which is often presented in physics textbooks (having not seen the inside of a physics textbook in years, I must take this on faith) as an example of resonance in a mechanical system.

The definition of resonance, as you mentioned, is generally an oscillator being externally driven by something that gives it a periodic 'push' at something close to one of its natural frequencies. The question then arises of how wind gusts, which are aperiodic, could have driven the bridge into resonance in the first place. The usual mechanism proposed is something apparently called 'vortex spillage' where turbulence across the bridge periodically spills a vortex off the trailing edge. This is a good theory but modeling of airflow across the bridge shows vortex spilling happening at a much slower rate than the actual oscillations of the bridge. I don't know what this has to do with horology/chronometry exactly but I thought it was kind of interesting . It's also an interesting example, by the way, of just how much conventional wisdom- even apparently expert conventional wisdom and professional consensus- is sometimes not as reliable as one might think.

The basic definitions I've seen of mechanical (vs. acoustic, nuclear, or chemical) resonance all pretty much say the same thing: that it consists of an oscillator being driven periodically by a force applied at something very near one of the natural frequencies of the oscillator. As I understand it there are other ways to couple periodic mechanical phenomena than resonance. The Journe Chronometre a Resonance is an interesting case in point. I didn't realize this until recently but apparently the two balance wheels are not, when the watch is 'resonating,' actually rotating in synchrony with each other. I always thought that as the left wheel was rotating clockwise the right was rotating counterclockwise, and the air friction between the two was essentially locking them in phase with each other. It turns out (or so I'm told) that the two balance wheels are actually both rotating clockwise, then counterclockwise. This means that they're actually producing aerodynamic drag on each other at the boundary layer of the balance (right at the outer surface of the rim). If the aerodynamic coupling scenario is true then in a way, what you've got in that watch is exactly the opposite of resonance; in fact you've got two oscillators dampening each other rather than driving each other to greater amplitude. One of the basic requirements of a resonant mechanical system, as I understand the definitions I've read, is that one system is driving another, not dampening it. If the two balances are really resonating with each other, then you should be able to remove the mainspring from one of the two movements and the unpowered balance should still begin to oscillate at it's natural frequency (you could actually do this experiment, if you wanted to monkey with your Journe , I suppose you'd have to take the pallet fork out of the unpowered side as well.) This would clearly show that one oscillator was driving the other, albeit still leaving open the question of how the movements are coupled.

In the case of the new Beat Haldimann watch there seems to be an unambiguous mechanism for linking the balances- that is, the 'resonance arm' connecting the outer terminal curves of the two hairsprings. On the assumption that this watch actually represents two resonating oscillators, I suppose the next question is whether or not the resonators offer, even theoretically (leaving aside practical engineering constraints which may swamp any theoretical benefit, peace to those of you who find my admiration of the theoretical benefits of the tourbillon overstated) any advantage in timekeeping. As I understand it, all other things being equal (ha ha ) the Q of an oscillator is dependent on the mass of the oscillator and frequency, the relationship expressing the ability of the oscillator to resist external perturbations. The advantage that I can see to a resonator- potentially- is that coupling the two balances doubles the effective mass and thereby increases the Q of the system overall. On this view, once again all other things being equal, a resonance watch (defined as one with two balances mechanically coupled so as to induce resonance) should offer better long-term stability of rate. In practice whether or not this occurs would depend on a lot of other variables including stability of lubrication, etc. etc. Dr. Daniels would no doubt say that for such a mechanism to fulfill its potential it must be fitted with a co-axial escapement (or at least a detent escapement. . .)

Jack


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Can we have a serious discussion about resonance?

 
 By: ThomasM : March 3rd, 2005-03:03
I think that nearly everyone with any background or even sense about physics and technology has a gut or intuitive sense of resonance. Certainly, even the layman has an intuitive feel for the subject, in the sense of something "resonating" - echos; a stri... 

A little bit. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-09:09
. . .from me; I just read an interesting article archived to a physics newsgroup on the famous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapes, which is often presented in physics textbooks (having not seen the inside of a physics textbook in years, I must take this on fa... 

I am sure that acoustic resonance still exists

 
 By: tony p : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
within the Journe watch, despite what you say about drag effects between the two balances. It has been described elsewhere on ThePuristS (from memory, by Felipe) how a Journe watch's two movements will start to beat in synchrony a few minutes after windin... 

Two points in rebuttal. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13

Tacoma Bridge paper

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
Jack, I think this is the paper you're talking about. Well worth a read - it basically highlights that there is much more to this than meets the eye - and the simplistic explanations aren't correct. http://www-mtl.mit.edu/research/mems-salon/sriram_Billah... 

That's it, Greg. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15

Are you sure that the balances in the Journe Resonance

 
 By: IanS : March 3rd, 2005-10:22
rotate in the same direction Jack ? I have always understood that they rotated in opposite directions which would make air flow a possibility: though Suitbert mentions elsewhere that Journe has found the same effect in a vacumn chamber, which if correct, ... 

from Felipe (is it possible different examples couple differently even? :) )

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:03
Hi Ian, Felipe mentioned it recently to Jack and I and we were both a little shocked to hear that the balances oscillated in phase with each other. He was only referring to his specific example though so I'm not sure how this reflects what is supposed to ... 

Yes indeed. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .straight from Our Man Inside; in fact he mentions it in his review of the Journe Resonance specifically (and chided me gently for not being observant enough to have noticed it in the write-up) . I wondered the same thing John- given the need to place... 

The true resonance? It must be Bulova Accutron with tuning fork...

 
 By: Wichai : March 4th, 2005-05:05
Dear all, Just an addendum to this wonderful discussion, the probably most understandable case of resonance utilized in watch's movement could be of a Bulova Accutron. The oscillator makes the tuning forks vibrate with their natural frequency all the time... 

Resonance

 
 By: Greg D : March 4th, 2005-02:14

A brace of extracurricular . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . . examples before moving on to watches. First up is the legendary Lockheed P-38 Lightning which was the fighter plane flown by the two highest-scoring American aces of WWII - the twin-engine design employed contra-rotating propellers which were credit... 

Yes, but in the P-38 the propellers were contra-rotating. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . .which would have produced vibrations that tended to cancel each other; this is the opposite of resonance, isn't it? And in the Journe watch, as I understand it the balances are actually rotating in the same direction. . . Jack

Resonance in-phase vs out-of-phase . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
. . . hmm, this is getting complicated. In both of my extra-horological examples, the employment of out-of-phase resonance cancellation succeeded in improving the physical characteristics of the device in question. (Paranthetically, the P-38's purchased f... 

Hey, you think that's complicated. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
...  

I don't think the advantage of contra-rotating propellers has anything to do with...

 
 By: JGV : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
resonance Hi all, Two-engine propellor aircraft have a non-symmetric flow condition at the tail when both props rotate in the same direction, affecting directional control. The propeller slipstream produces a highly non-symmetric lift-distribution relativ... 

A frew thoughts on this...

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
The physics to two simple coupled oscillators isn't hard. If we're talking two coupled pendulums that will have two modes - one where they move together, and another where they move in opposite directions. These two modes will occur at different frequenci... 

Hi Greg, great stuff- a question. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
. . .from a physicist's perspective, are coupled oscillators necessarily resonating? The definitions I've read all define resonance in terms of an oscillator being driven at one of its natural frequencies by some external source, and also specify (often) ... 

Actually, I doubt that there is a difference between coupled and resonant oscillators.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:03
After this morning's post, I went off to work. All day I had the nagging feeling that what I had just written was wrong. (Less wrong than the rest of the poor deluded offerings above, but wrong nevertheless.) Resonance effects can occur where the frequenc... 

Actually AFAIK the 'vaccum chamber test' has . . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .not been done on the Journe watch. With respect to classic linear resonance where a 'passive' oscillator is driven by some external force at one of its natural frequencies, I don't think (pardon the nitpicking but this thread is all about picking nit... 

every object or system has a natural frequency

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:15
Hi Jack, A passive oscillator does have a natural frequency and it is precisely this fact that allows resonance to occur. In addition to a natural frequency there are also harmonics above and/or below the natural frequency that can be exploited by/for res... 

More info for consideration....

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : March 4th, 2005-01:13
Hi all, A few bits of info to add to the murky waters... The first bit is a LINK to an article I posted a couple of years ago written by Anthony Randall regarding Journe's Resonance. For a frame of reference regarding Anthony Randall - he majored in physi... 

Hi Curtis, extremely interesting. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .it's probably worth carefully noting that resonance effects can take place through almost unbelievably subtle mechanical linkages. I've been reading 'Tuxedo Park' which is a biography of Alfred Lee Loomis, who financed (among other things) the Americ... 

PS with all this great multimedia stuff on the other fora lately. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .what we need is a quicktime movie of somebody's Journe resonance in action Jack

Awesome, thank you Max. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 7th, 2005-08:08

Thanks, Curtis, for these clarifications.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:15
I have to say Jack, though your horological expertise is not in question, you still seem to be missing my point about resonance. Firstly: when I referred to the frequency of the unpowered oscillator, I was of course referring to its natural resonant frequ... 

I wonder - If a Duality was fitted with a locking differential,

 
 By: IanS : March 5th, 2005-12:12
would it perform better with or without the diff locked ?

Interesting question

 
 By: Dave Fabiszak : March 8th, 2005-09:21

Dynamo

 
 By: Alex : March 10th, 2005-08:08

About Resonance, and also the "Project 150"

 
 By: Justin Koullapis : March 10th, 2005-06:18
Gentlemen, I have read your posts on this subject with great interest?I have recently been giving resonance a lot of thought, and specifically how it relates to current and past horological creations. It would seem to me that any system of coupled oscilla...