More info for consideration....

Mar 04, 2005,01:13 AM
 

Hi all,

A few bits of info to add to the murky waters...

The first bit is a LINK to an article I posted a couple of years ago written by Anthony Randall regarding Journe's Resonance. For a frame of reference regarding Anthony Randall - he majored in physics at university in England. He then took the BHI's correspondence course, followed by 18 months at the watchmaking school in La Chaux des Fonds (this all took place in the 1960's). He did some restoration work with George Daniels, taught watchmaking in England and then became an independent restorer and maker of precision timepieces. His specialty area is in precision timekeepers (although he is seemingly authoratively knowledgeable on all aspects of horology!).

Regarding the direction of oscillation of Journe's Resonance balances - From Journe's website, "When both balances are in motion, they reach a state of "sympathy" throught the effect of resonance and began to beat naturally in the opposite direction." And, that is how I remember seeing them, but my memory may be faulty.

Breguet's pocket "resonance" watches (two that are known) both had balances oscillating in opposite directions. He also separated the two balances with a thin steel shield to help remove air coupling from the equation and the apparent results were that resonance was in fact taking place, even with the balance shielded from eachother. He separated his pendulum clocks (two that are known) in a similar fashion, with similar results.

Janvier, Breguet, Journe, Daniels and Randall seem to share the same opinion that resonance is transmitted through the frame or plates, as it were. Granted, only Randall has "proper" physics training, but horological experience and practice shouldn't be undervalued. Regarding Breguet, Daniels writes, "He realised that the same phenomena must occur in a balance wheel system where the motion would be transmitted to the plate of the watch by the couple of the balance and spring at the limit of arc of vibration. If two systems were employed working in contra direction, then the movment of the plate would be equalised and cancelled. In the event of one system gaining or losing relative to the other the induced movement of the plate would act favourably to reduce the vibration." The Art of Breguet, George Daniels.

As far as I know, Journe has never vacuum tested his Resonance, but I do know that a "respected" manufacture of complicated movements vacuum tested Journe's Resonance to quench his own curiosity. He said that resonance did take place.

Anyway, the above will hopefully be helpful and if not, at least it is interesting bits of trivia!

Cheers,

Curtis


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Can we have a serious discussion about resonance?

 
 By: ThomasM : March 3rd, 2005-03:03
I think that nearly everyone with any background or even sense about physics and technology has a gut or intuitive sense of resonance. Certainly, even the layman has an intuitive feel for the subject, in the sense of something "resonating" - echos; a stri... 

A little bit. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-09:09
. . .from me; I just read an interesting article archived to a physics newsgroup on the famous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapes, which is often presented in physics textbooks (having not seen the inside of a physics textbook in years, I must take this on fa... 

I am sure that acoustic resonance still exists

 
 By: tony p : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
within the Journe watch, despite what you say about drag effects between the two balances. It has been described elsewhere on ThePuristS (from memory, by Felipe) how a Journe watch's two movements will start to beat in synchrony a few minutes after windin... 

Two points in rebuttal. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13

Tacoma Bridge paper

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
Jack, I think this is the paper you're talking about. Well worth a read - it basically highlights that there is much more to this than meets the eye - and the simplistic explanations aren't correct. http://www-mtl.mit.edu/research/mems-salon/sriram_Billah... 

That's it, Greg. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15

Are you sure that the balances in the Journe Resonance

 
 By: IanS : March 3rd, 2005-10:22
rotate in the same direction Jack ? I have always understood that they rotated in opposite directions which would make air flow a possibility: though Suitbert mentions elsewhere that Journe has found the same effect in a vacumn chamber, which if correct, ... 

from Felipe (is it possible different examples couple differently even? :) )

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:03
Hi Ian, Felipe mentioned it recently to Jack and I and we were both a little shocked to hear that the balances oscillated in phase with each other. He was only referring to his specific example though so I'm not sure how this reflects what is supposed to ... 

Yes indeed. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .straight from Our Man Inside; in fact he mentions it in his review of the Journe Resonance specifically (and chided me gently for not being observant enough to have noticed it in the write-up) . I wondered the same thing John- given the need to place... 

The true resonance? It must be Bulova Accutron with tuning fork...

 
 By: Wichai : March 4th, 2005-05:05
Dear all, Just an addendum to this wonderful discussion, the probably most understandable case of resonance utilized in watch's movement could be of a Bulova Accutron. The oscillator makes the tuning forks vibrate with their natural frequency all the time... 

Resonance

 
 By: Greg D : March 4th, 2005-02:14

A brace of extracurricular . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . . examples before moving on to watches. First up is the legendary Lockheed P-38 Lightning which was the fighter plane flown by the two highest-scoring American aces of WWII - the twin-engine design employed contra-rotating propellers which were credit... 

Yes, but in the P-38 the propellers were contra-rotating. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . .which would have produced vibrations that tended to cancel each other; this is the opposite of resonance, isn't it? And in the Journe watch, as I understand it the balances are actually rotating in the same direction. . . Jack

Resonance in-phase vs out-of-phase . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
. . . hmm, this is getting complicated. In both of my extra-horological examples, the employment of out-of-phase resonance cancellation succeeded in improving the physical characteristics of the device in question. (Paranthetically, the P-38's purchased f... 

Hey, you think that's complicated. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
...  

I don't think the advantage of contra-rotating propellers has anything to do with...

 
 By: JGV : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
resonance Hi all, Two-engine propellor aircraft have a non-symmetric flow condition at the tail when both props rotate in the same direction, affecting directional control. The propeller slipstream produces a highly non-symmetric lift-distribution relativ... 

A frew thoughts on this...

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
The physics to two simple coupled oscillators isn't hard. If we're talking two coupled pendulums that will have two modes - one where they move together, and another where they move in opposite directions. These two modes will occur at different frequenci... 

Hi Greg, great stuff- a question. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
. . .from a physicist's perspective, are coupled oscillators necessarily resonating? The definitions I've read all define resonance in terms of an oscillator being driven at one of its natural frequencies by some external source, and also specify (often) ... 

Actually, I doubt that there is a difference between coupled and resonant oscillators.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:03
After this morning's post, I went off to work. All day I had the nagging feeling that what I had just written was wrong. (Less wrong than the rest of the poor deluded offerings above, but wrong nevertheless.) Resonance effects can occur where the frequenc... 

Actually AFAIK the 'vaccum chamber test' has . . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .not been done on the Journe watch. With respect to classic linear resonance where a 'passive' oscillator is driven by some external force at one of its natural frequencies, I don't think (pardon the nitpicking but this thread is all about picking nit... 

every object or system has a natural frequency

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:15
Hi Jack, A passive oscillator does have a natural frequency and it is precisely this fact that allows resonance to occur. In addition to a natural frequency there are also harmonics above and/or below the natural frequency that can be exploited by/for res... 

More info for consideration....

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : March 4th, 2005-01:13
Hi all, A few bits of info to add to the murky waters... The first bit is a LINK to an article I posted a couple of years ago written by Anthony Randall regarding Journe's Resonance. For a frame of reference regarding Anthony Randall - he majored in physi... 

Hi Curtis, extremely interesting. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .it's probably worth carefully noting that resonance effects can take place through almost unbelievably subtle mechanical linkages. I've been reading 'Tuxedo Park' which is a biography of Alfred Lee Loomis, who financed (among other things) the Americ... 

PS with all this great multimedia stuff on the other fora lately. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .what we need is a quicktime movie of somebody's Journe resonance in action Jack

Awesome, thank you Max. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 7th, 2005-08:08

Thanks, Curtis, for these clarifications.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:15
I have to say Jack, though your horological expertise is not in question, you still seem to be missing my point about resonance. Firstly: when I referred to the frequency of the unpowered oscillator, I was of course referring to its natural resonant frequ... 

I wonder - If a Duality was fitted with a locking differential,

 
 By: IanS : March 5th, 2005-12:12
would it perform better with or without the diff locked ?

Interesting question

 
 By: Dave Fabiszak : March 8th, 2005-09:21

Dynamo

 
 By: Alex : March 10th, 2005-08:08

About Resonance, and also the "Project 150"

 
 By: Justin Koullapis : March 10th, 2005-06:18
Gentlemen, I have read your posts on this subject with great interest?I have recently been giving resonance a lot of thought, and specifically how it relates to current and past horological creations. It would seem to me that any system of coupled oscilla...