About Resonance, and also the "Project 150"

Mar 10, 2005,06:18 AM
 

Gentlemen,

I have read your posts on this subject with great interest?I have recently been giving resonance a lot of thought, and specifically how it relates to current and past horological creations.

It would seem to me that any system of coupled oscillators, bound loosely together, and which beat in relative sympathy, do not really count as being in resonance at all. Rather, I would argue that such a pair of oscillators are really ONE oscillator with a very complex geometry.

Take for example the balance bars on Harrison's clock, H1. The pair of dumbell-shaped brass balance bars are connected to each other in two ways, namely:

a) By means of a pair of helical springs connecting opposing dumbell-ends, and

b) By means of a pair of steel ribbons, fixed to a roller on each balance so that the two are inseperably bound?when one balance rotates clockwise, its partner is forced into rotating anti-clockwise.

So, the two balances are locked into phase with each other. What I am trying to illustrate is the existence of apparently seperate oscillators actually working as one. They can be mathematically reduced to just one oscillator, the frequency of which is some function of their geometry (I do not claim to be capable of actually doing the Maths, though!).

Now, in H1, the oscillators are "tightly" bound, inasmuch as the steel ribbon could expand or contract, and therefore, can definitely NOT be considered a "resonant" system. There are other timepieces whose multiple oscillators are commonly considered to be in "resonance", but are really in a status of forced, unnatural, communication, not as forced as in the example of H1, above, but still forced. Examples of these would be Janvier's dual-pendulum clocks, and Breguet's. In both cases, the pendulum supports are flexible or pivoted in some way, so as to impart shared motion between the two. I would venture that Mons. Haldimann's "Double Resonance Tourbillon" falls into the same category?the twinned balances are forced into sharing communication with one another, and thus become indistinguishable from each other. They become ONE. Not two in harmony.

The remarkable performance of all the "resonant" systems cited above may well have to do with a certain level of communication between the oscillators, but I still feel that they should more properly be considered to have a single complex oscillator with a very complex geometry.

Mons. Journe's "Chronom?tre ? R?sonance", however, has a pair of oscillators, finely adjusted to match each other, and solidly fixed with respect to each other. There is no conjuring here. Imperceptible vibrations are transmitted, perhaps through the medium of the report of the pallet stones against the 'scape wheel teeth, perhaps some reaction between the balance jewels and their respective pivots, perhaps the reaction of the balance spring against its mounting. Perhaps all three, perhaps none. I don't believe air movement has much to do with it?Breguet's air shield disproves this.

Regarding the reaction of the balance spring and its stud, may I offer the following insight, well-known, perhaps, to watchmakers: if you have a balance and spring assembly, out of a watch, and you raise and lower the balance spring by the stud at precisely the frequency to which the assembly is tuned (eg 18000 b/hr), the balance will oscillate in the normal way, proving that there is measurable reaction to the motion of the balance at the spring's stud. This reaction may well be communicated to the rest of the watch (just be worrried when your arm muscles begin to tic at 18000 beats per hour!).

Regarding the Conant-Tiffany clock mentioned in Jack's earlier post, can anybody cast any light on the system used to keep the pendula in resonance? It is referred to in the article, but not described. I think that the great achievement of this particular clock is the method of dividing the errors with differentials. Genius.

Lastly (finally!), may I draw your attention to the work being done in the United Kingdom in this regard: a team of horologists, among whom are very eminent clockmakers and mathematicians, is building a multi-pendulum clock, one of the objectives being to have the clock operate on a resonant system. Three pendulums have been tried, and four, and that with three, the pendulums communicate with each other very well without any external, interefering, coupling device. Indeed, as I understand it, LESS power is required to drive the three in resonance than just one on its own, a litmus test of a true resonant system. Just as in all the other cases, the oscillators have to be closely rated with respect to each other. With four pendulums, there are two pairs swinging at right angles to each other, and with three, they are mounted at the vertices of an equilateral triangle, swinging towards and away from the centre.

I don't think I have added any definitive word to the meaning of "resonance", but I feel a ditsinction must be made between genuine and forced behaviour in these systems. Please tear it to pieces; I am hoping to glean insight into the principle anyway.


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Can we have a serious discussion about resonance?

 
 By: ThomasM : March 3rd, 2005-03:03
I think that nearly everyone with any background or even sense about physics and technology has a gut or intuitive sense of resonance. Certainly, even the layman has an intuitive feel for the subject, in the sense of something "resonating" - echos; a stri... 

A little bit. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-09:09
. . .from me; I just read an interesting article archived to a physics newsgroup on the famous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapes, which is often presented in physics textbooks (having not seen the inside of a physics textbook in years, I must take this on fa... 

I am sure that acoustic resonance still exists

 
 By: tony p : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
within the Journe watch, despite what you say about drag effects between the two balances. It has been described elsewhere on ThePuristS (from memory, by Felipe) how a Journe watch's two movements will start to beat in synchrony a few minutes after windin... 

Two points in rebuttal. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13

Tacoma Bridge paper

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
Jack, I think this is the paper you're talking about. Well worth a read - it basically highlights that there is much more to this than meets the eye - and the simplistic explanations aren't correct. http://www-mtl.mit.edu/research/mems-salon/sriram_Billah... 

That's it, Greg. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15

Are you sure that the balances in the Journe Resonance

 
 By: IanS : March 3rd, 2005-10:22
rotate in the same direction Jack ? I have always understood that they rotated in opposite directions which would make air flow a possibility: though Suitbert mentions elsewhere that Journe has found the same effect in a vacumn chamber, which if correct, ... 

from Felipe (is it possible different examples couple differently even? :) )

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:03
Hi Ian, Felipe mentioned it recently to Jack and I and we were both a little shocked to hear that the balances oscillated in phase with each other. He was only referring to his specific example though so I'm not sure how this reflects what is supposed to ... 

Yes indeed. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .straight from Our Man Inside; in fact he mentions it in his review of the Journe Resonance specifically (and chided me gently for not being observant enough to have noticed it in the write-up) . I wondered the same thing John- given the need to place... 

The true resonance? It must be Bulova Accutron with tuning fork...

 
 By: Wichai : March 4th, 2005-05:05
Dear all, Just an addendum to this wonderful discussion, the probably most understandable case of resonance utilized in watch's movement could be of a Bulova Accutron. The oscillator makes the tuning forks vibrate with their natural frequency all the time... 

Resonance

 
 By: Greg D : March 4th, 2005-02:14

A brace of extracurricular . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . . examples before moving on to watches. First up is the legendary Lockheed P-38 Lightning which was the fighter plane flown by the two highest-scoring American aces of WWII - the twin-engine design employed contra-rotating propellers which were credit... 

Yes, but in the P-38 the propellers were contra-rotating. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-01:13
. . .which would have produced vibrations that tended to cancel each other; this is the opposite of resonance, isn't it? And in the Journe watch, as I understand it the balances are actually rotating in the same direction. . . Jack

Resonance in-phase vs out-of-phase . . .

 
 By: Dr No : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
. . . hmm, this is getting complicated. In both of my extra-horological examples, the employment of out-of-phase resonance cancellation succeeded in improving the physical characteristics of the device in question. (Paranthetically, the P-38's purchased f... 

Hey, you think that's complicated. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-02:14
...  

I don't think the advantage of contra-rotating propellers has anything to do with...

 
 By: JGV : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
resonance Hi all, Two-engine propellor aircraft have a non-symmetric flow condition at the tail when both props rotate in the same direction, affecting directional control. The propeller slipstream produces a highly non-symmetric lift-distribution relativ... 

A frew thoughts on this...

 
 By: Greg D : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
The physics to two simple coupled oscillators isn't hard. If we're talking two coupled pendulums that will have two modes - one where they move together, and another where they move in opposite directions. These two modes will occur at different frequenci... 

Hi Greg, great stuff- a question. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 3rd, 2005-03:15
. . .from a physicist's perspective, are coupled oscillators necessarily resonating? The definitions I've read all define resonance in terms of an oscillator being driven at one of its natural frequencies by some external source, and also specify (often) ... 

Actually, I doubt that there is a difference between coupled and resonant oscillators.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:03
After this morning's post, I went off to work. All day I had the nagging feeling that what I had just written was wrong. (Less wrong than the rest of the poor deluded offerings above, but wrong nevertheless.) Resonance effects can occur where the frequenc... 

Actually AFAIK the 'vaccum chamber test' has . . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-04:04
. . .not been done on the Journe watch. With respect to classic linear resonance where a 'passive' oscillator is driven by some external force at one of its natural frequencies, I don't think (pardon the nitpicking but this thread is all about picking nit... 

every object or system has a natural frequency

 
 By: ei8htohms : March 4th, 2005-03:15
Hi Jack, A passive oscillator does have a natural frequency and it is precisely this fact that allows resonance to occur. In addition to a natural frequency there are also harmonics above and/or below the natural frequency that can be exploited by/for res... 

More info for consideration....

 
 By: Curtis for David Lou : March 4th, 2005-01:13
Hi all, A few bits of info to add to the murky waters... The first bit is a LINK to an article I posted a couple of years ago written by Anthony Randall regarding Journe's Resonance. For a frame of reference regarding Anthony Randall - he majored in physi... 

Hi Curtis, extremely interesting. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .it's probably worth carefully noting that resonance effects can take place through almost unbelievably subtle mechanical linkages. I've been reading 'Tuxedo Park' which is a biography of Alfred Lee Loomis, who financed (among other things) the Americ... 

PS with all this great multimedia stuff on the other fora lately. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 4th, 2005-02:14
. . .what we need is a quicktime movie of somebody's Journe resonance in action Jack

Awesome, thank you Max. . .

 
 By: Jack Forster : March 7th, 2005-08:08

Thanks, Curtis, for these clarifications.

 
 By: tony p : March 4th, 2005-03:15
I have to say Jack, though your horological expertise is not in question, you still seem to be missing my point about resonance. Firstly: when I referred to the frequency of the unpowered oscillator, I was of course referring to its natural resonant frequ... 

I wonder - If a Duality was fitted with a locking differential,

 
 By: IanS : March 5th, 2005-12:12
would it perform better with or without the diff locked ?

Interesting question

 
 By: Dave Fabiszak : March 8th, 2005-09:21

Dynamo

 
 By: Alex : March 10th, 2005-08:08

About Resonance, and also the "Project 150"

 
 By: Justin Koullapis : March 10th, 2005-06:18
Gentlemen, I have read your posts on this subject with great interest?I have recently been giving resonance a lot of thought, and specifically how it relates to current and past horological creations. It would seem to me that any system of coupled oscilla...